On Dec. 31, 2008, I posted an article entitled, "Links List for 2009." In that entry, I added a modified version of Heather's Rules of Golf that updated this post. Heather's Rules of Golf, Section M-1.b, now reads as follows: “I will no longer play with men who are jerks or married to one.” Believe it or not, this would NOT apply to Mr. Daly.
The post also included a list of people I would like to play golf with in 2009. They included Olympic gold Medalist Scott Hamilton, John Daly, and Bubble from Absolutely Fabulous.
Should men and women should play golf together?
I'm not talking about "couple" golf—husbands and wives, significant others, or friends of the opposite sex. But is it O.K. for a married woman (or man) to play golf with someone of the opposite sex who may also be married or in a committed relationship? This may sound silly, but my own experiences tell me this is a real issue
I have made it a rule not play with other men unless Hubbie is part of the foursome. Last season, I was playing by myself on a gorgeous day. A couple of men whom I knew casually were playing in front of me. Once they realized I was behind them, they wanted me to join them. I told them "No thanks, I'm practicing extra shots. I'm fine. Really!"
These
Months later, a
I talked to Hubbie about the matter. He doesn't see anything wrong with playing with other guys. Although his friend Rich feels very differently. Rich is a true gentleman and very old-school. He doesn't think a married man should play with a woman other than his wife. However, he thinks it is up the man to employ this unstated rule. Rich once had a woman and her son ask to join them when he was playing on the course alone. He declined, but told them to play through, and they did.
I know many courses are busy and don't allow singles to play. They put players together regardless of their gender or marital status. At our course this is not the case. I personally find the whole thing ridiculous. I've had a few men ask me to join them since, but I simply won't do it.
It's too bad these women who spread rumors don't spend their time more wisely. Better yet, wouldn't it be great if they actually learned how to play golf so they could join their husbands on the course occasionally? I think women who don't golf aren't fond of another women sharing something in common with their husbands. I've often find myself curbing "golf talk" at a parties because it annoys "non-golfing" women.
I hate that golf can divide women into two camps: Those who do and those who don't. I would love to see more women on the course. But just because more men play golf doesn't mean I don't belong on the course too. I love the game as much as the next guy, but I certainly won't play with him again.
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14 comments:
For the first time EVER, I'm so disappointed in your decision to not play with men. I don't understand why you are changing your behavior based on a obvious statement coming from a woman with such insecurities. If you have nothing to hide, are not up to anything inappropriate, why are you letting someone else manage you? I play with men all the time -others husbands, boyfriends etc. I walk on and get paired with men 90%of the time. I'm professional and appropriate and never leave any question to my morals or ethics. That is part of the game. That is part of life! You might want to revisit and reevaluate who is the immature party in this blog!!
Carolyn,
You have certainly given me something to think about. I want to be very clear, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG with women playing with men. Never had, never will. Maybe I should have been clearer on my rule. I do not intend to play alone with men on my home course. There appears to be some sort of sigma associated with it. I don't think I am being weak, I think I am being smart. I simply do not want to put myself in a situation that many (at least where I play) seem to find questionable. Even though I don't agree with it.
I actually did play with men recently when I was on another course. I was playing with my coach and 2 other men that joined us. We had a great time and I shot 39 for the first time on 9 holes.
I wrote this post with several other future posts in mind. I wanted to get a feel for how others view the situation. Maybe this is more of a reflection of the course I play on. Honestly, I don't know what the social norm on this one is. That is what I want to find out.
I appreciate your comments and find them quite helpful. Fortunately, it's my rule and I can reevaluate it and change it whenever I want. :o)
While I don't agree 100%, in that I believe gossipy women should mind their own business AND that one shouldn't worry about what other people think of them and what they chose to do with their lives, I do believe this argument (basically, that it isn't worth the hassle)is a good one, very well thought-out and well said.
I think you bring up a good point about women learning to play golf so they can join their husbands; I also think that women being divided into "hate golf/love golf" camps goes a lot deeper than just the golf issue itself.
I'm a (semi-retired) female software engineer in a male-dominated engineering world. I have made some choices along the same lines as you have to ensure that my reputation doesn't get trashed - in my experience, men can be just as bad (I think worse) at gossiping/trashing reputations as women can be!
Just my 2 cents.
I don’t have any problem with playing with any of my friends’ gf's or wives (all 1 of them). My home course might as well be the set for a soap opera with all the gossip and bickering that goes on, but not once (that I know of) has this been an issue between members. I do agree with Carolyn, if you are doing nothing wrong then to hell with the opinion of the other ladies that have nothing better to do than put others down. Look at the most recent Big Break on the golf channel, Haymes and Bernadette are both married and have families. I am yet to read anywhere people saying that they shouldn’t be playing golf together without their spouses, so nationally I think it must be a perfectly acceptable thing to do...just maybe not to the members at your club.
Since you asked how others view the situation, I'll respond.
Not sure I understand why you agreed to play with the two obnoxious guys. My wife, J., would have called the pro shop to put an end to their harassment.
Your reaction to the insecure woman surprises me. Perhaps we live in different social worlds. I think J. would have just laughed in her face and walked away. I'm sure she wouldn't have changed her behavior, if for no other reason than to show that the woman's comments didn't bother her in the least.
I've played golf with other married women, though not frequently. If I had suggested to J. that she might be jealous when I played golf with other women, I'm pretty sure she would have laughed. She's a very confident woman.
Very interesting post. I just entered your poll before reading this post.
I think that your decision to not play with men is probably wrong but you do need to live with the results of your decision and your reputation is difficult to repair so maybe you're right after all.
You might want to talk to some of the wives of the men who play at your club and get their feedback. Playing 9 or 18 holes with someone shouldn't be a problem, but what about hitting the 19th afterward? I can see a potential problem with that.
A related consideration would be whether there is just you and another man (woman) or if it is a group. I would probably be less comfortable if it was just 2 of us alone on the course.
I hope that you find a good solution to this problem!
That type of thing will happen.
I wrote about it a while back, and as long the game of golf remains 80% male a woman will inevitably find herself matched with the husbands or boyfriends of non-playing women. And, particularly if the woman happens to be attractive, it'll often provoke gossip and/or snide remarks around the club. I've been there, and I never cared about the ugly words, however, it's a very individual choice and I don't think others should disparage your choice, because after all, they don't know the culture of your club or your town, or your life.
I live in an ultra liberal suburb of NYC and I don't have children. I'm guessing that if I lived in a red state and had little kids I would opt for a "no playing with Men rule" too.
Most of us wouldn't want our kids to be exposed to salacious gossip if we could help it, right?
Love the ornaments, by the way.
When I first read this I was thinking just what others were thinking. Why didn't you just tell the immature guys and the gossipy gals to shove it, but what Patricia says makes sense. If you have kids you sure don't want them to hear bad things about you. It's sad but true - gossips have been around since the dawn of time - and many are prowling the country clubs.
Honestly, what a silly problem. Why can't people keep their mouths shut and let you play the game? Then you wouldn't have to have rules like this.
I've seen nonsense like this at my club. I just try to ignore it.
I don't see any problem with a guy or gal, married or single playing a round of golf together. If you're there to play golf, you'll play golf. If you're there to cheat on your significant other then somebodys not doing their job off the course.
If a another guy makes an flirtatious gesture towards my wife....I feel like a lucky guy with a unique gift that everyone else wants......but the reaction from my wife would probably be an introduction to her 5 iron.
I say that the ability to play a game of golf in good conscience with anyone of your choosing is a tribute to the strength of your relationship......although for you Heather....I would probably hesitate if you wanted to play a round with Camilo...lol.
I understand the pressure a comment (like that one) from a non-playing wife can put on you. However, our club is not like that at all. We've all played in so many tournaments & club scrambles together that it just isn't an issue. Unless, of course, there is someone flirting unmercifully with another team member. Now, that causes talk & often hard feelings too.
When you've been married as long as most of us have, it really is different. My friend Judy & I play with other guys at the club all the time & it doesn't bother our hubbies a bit, just as it wouldn't bother us if the tables were turned. Of course, we're all friends but when the game is done we all shake hands & it goes no further.
That said, I know there are people who gossip at our club & I've turned a deaf ear when it's around me. I don't listen to gossip & I don't pass it on if I do happen to hear it. Life is too short to waste my time there. That's not to say I wouldn't have back when I was your age. When you're younger it seems to matter a lot more, especially if it is the type of thing that could possibly hurt your children.
Also, each club is different. Some clubs are much more reserved than others, as are their members. But frankly, I've never played a game with anyone where my ethics or morals even came into question. It's just a friendly game of golf. No more.
Still, I wouldn't let some insecure idiot who doesn't have the guts to take up the game, inflence my decision. Actually, judging by my past behavior, I'd probably seek out her hubby just to play a round of golf with him & see what all her fuss is about. Maybe he's the type that has a roving eye, lol. At which point I would see where the problem lies.
I took up this game for three reasons. 1)To have something the hubby & I could enjoy doing together 2)To enjoy the outdoors & get some moderate exercise. 3) To achieve the camraderie that is associated with golf. After that, I don't really care.
Don't let the real life trolls or the comment trolls get to you...
Only ok if approved by your spouse. Some will have a problem with (probably non golfers) and other will be fine with the idea. Personally I am ok with it.
I'm not meaning to disparage anyone's comments, but this whole discussion seems like something out of the 1960's. My Boomer generation was supposed to liberate women once and for all. To read that we're still struggling to define the proper social relationships between the sexes - 35 years after the Lib movement started - is disappointing.
Sorry, but I just do not see why it makes any difference at all what gender of golfers play together. Liberation of women from traditional roles now makes it commonplace for men and women to have business lunches together, to go on sales trips together, to work late on projects together. What on earth is threatening about walking around a golf course together?
IMO, when women allow insecure people to restrict their completely innocent activities with men, those women are sending a terrrible message to their daughters. And I think those daughters pick up on such messages at a very early age.
I swear I just woke up in 1973...it's LIfe on Mars come to Birmimngham ! Seriously, I cannot believe I am reading this - it must be a joke.
Two Issues:
(1) How is golf any different than running, cycling,paddling,skiing,snowboarding, etc... If you cannot trust your SO, it won't matter whether they are golfing or "at the mall" - cheaters will cheat.
(2) After listening my entire life to women demanding to be treated as equals - we now decide that they don't want to play with us ? After demanding to be let in the locker rooms of pro athletes after the game ? After taking over the men's room at an Indigo Girls concert ?
Here's MY experience - when we have a woman join our group, I find that they group is much MORE polite and respectful than theu would otherwise be....but maybe that's because I live in the South ( and a RED state, to boot), where gentlemen are Gentlemen...
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